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  Topic Review (Newest First)
07-06-2007 05:15 PM
Alec trevelyan
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

Murph, you've deduced the same thing about us--that much is crystal clear.
07-06-2007 04:27 PM
murph182
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1540066#msg1540066 date=1183751755]
I only bring up Clinton's impeachment because you all seem to have such a hard-on for him and can't stop talking about "well, Clinton did this, Clinton did that....let's talk about Clinton's PENIS some more!!!" in every damn political discussion under the sun. Why does it make it okay for Bush to do something just because Clinton or some other Dem did it, by the way? Are you admitting that both parties are really the same band of crooks?
[/quote]

please. Now you're taking credit for something that you didn't even do. I brought up Clinton, and only in the context of comparing how someone felt about perjury by a republican with perjury by a democrat in order to point out how one-sided they were being.

And the reason I bring up Clinton in threads about Bush is not to point to Clinton and say "but Clinton did it to", but rather to point out that the very people bashing Bush over something either A) have no problem with the fact that Clinton (or any other President) did the same thing or B) the problem was actually caused by Clinton (or another President).

I've repeatedly commented in this forum that actions are not excusable simply because someone else performed them in the past, and applied that to democrats and republicans alike.

Quote:
It was brought up as an example of whether or not a person should face the penalty they are given for their criminal conviction to see if your partisan views block your impartiality with respect to the law. The responses I have recieved prove that the GOP comes first, the law comes second, in your minds...
please. If you've deduced that from our conversation then you're absolutely nuts.
07-06-2007 04:21 PM
murph182
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=Yugo link=topic=82162.msg1540064#msg1540064 date=1183751728]
I am not an expert at presidential powers but I have a question on this. If what you are saying is true ,that if the punishment was appropriate 6-12 months prison we wouldn't see his sentence commuted, then why didn't the president commute his sentence to 6-12 months? I think it would be more appropriate 6-12 months in prison alone, assuming that is the appropriate punishment, versus 250k and 2 yr probation.
[/quote]

I'm not 100%, but I believe he could have. I could very well be wrong.

Regardless, here is why he didn't: Bush didn't want Libby to go to jail at all. With the sentence that was given, he at least had some valid reasons that he could present to the public for why he felt that it was too harsh. If the sentence had been something like 6 months, it would have been seen by a lot of people as either fair or too lenient, and Bush wouldn't have been able to make any excuses for commuting the sentence.

It would have been harder to justify commuting the sentence if it wasn't as long as it was.

Personally, I think a better way to handle it would have been to let him serve several months in prison and then commute the sentence or pardon him.



07-06-2007 04:12 PM
murph182
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1540007#msg1540007 date=1183749969]
I thought you undestood what I said by "impeached by both houses" as I have said "convicted by the Senate" in other posts. I guess I overestimated you.
[/quote]

"impeached by both houses" implies that you believe that the Senate has something to do with impeachment, or that you consider the Senate trial to be part of the impeachment process, which it is not. You also said "convicted by both houses", which makes no sense.


Quote:
Wait, you just said it was that black and white with regards to the Constitution (see bolded parts above). Which is it now?
there's a difference between determining guilt and innocence or choosing a penalty from a range of options, and having something specifically spelled out in the Constitution. Perhaps I could have been a bit more clear, but I just assumed that your reading comprehension skills were a bit higher. Perhaps I am the one overestimating you now, huh?
07-06-2007 03:55 PM
fusionowner
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

Please note, righties:

I only bring up Clinton's impeachment because you all seem to have such a hard-on for him and can't stop talking about "well, Clinton did this, Clinton did that....let's talk about Clinton's PENIS some more!!!" in every damn political discussion under the sun. Why does it make it okay for Bush to do something just because Clinton or some other Dem did it, by the way? Are you admitting that both parties are really the same band of crooks?

It was brought up as an example of whether or not a person should face the penalty they are given for their criminal conviction to see if your partisan views block your impartiality with respect to the law. The responses I have recieved prove that the GOP comes first, the law comes second, in your minds...
07-06-2007 03:55 PM
Yugo
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

Quote:
Quote from: murph182 on Today at 03:15:49 PM
In fact, I've stated that were the jail sentence to have been much lower, such as 6-12 months, we likely wouldn't have seen the sentence commuted. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so.
I am not an expert at presidential powers but I have a question on this. If what you are saying is true ,that if the punishment was appropriate 6-12 months prison we wouldn't see his sentence commuted, then why didn't the president commute his sentence to 6-12 months? I think it would be more appropriate 6-12 months in prison alone, assuming that is the appropriate punishment, versus 250k and 2 yr probation.
07-06-2007 03:36 PM
Alec trevelyan
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1539430#msg1539430 date=1183733186]
Murph,

You're the one showing your true colors here today. You are the one who thinks Libby should walk but do you think the same should have been done to Clinton? If he was convicted by both houses should he have been able to stay on as President because the punishment was "too harsh" for perjury and obstruction of justice?
[/quote]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
07-06-2007 03:28 PM
fusionowner
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=timmyj link=topic=82162.msg1539994#msg1539994 date=1183749676]
[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1539979#msg1539979 date=1183749256]
I agree with what you said.

However, it is my Constitutional right to do all kinds of things that are not morally right. Bush's Constitutional right to pardon whomever he wants does not make this morally right. If you care to notice, I am not saying the commutation is ILLEGAL, I am saying it is WRONG.
[/quote]

Cool, I understand your point. I think it was RIGHT for Bush to commute the sentence and it will be RIGHT if he pardons Libby should the appeals court not overturn the conviction (which they probably will in my opinion). I think it was WRONG for Fitzgerald to go after Libby when Armitage was the one that admitted to leaking the name.
[/quote]

It was RIGHT for Fitzgerald to gather all the facts in the case and it was WRONG for Libby to commit purjury and to obstruct justice. Further, it is WRONG for a President to commute a sentence for his VP's Chief of Staff when the sentence is within sentencing guidelines.

You are playing the "two wrongs make a right" game but whether or not Fitzgerald should have done what he did, Libby SHOULD NOT have lied under oath and obstructed justice. Now that he has been convicted of it, he should accept his sentence, as it is within sentencing guidelines.

Since when has anyone in government taken full responsibility for their actions, however?????
07-06-2007 03:26 PM
fusionowner
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=murph182 link=topic=82162.msg1539982#msg1539982 date=1183749349]
[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1539876#msg1539876 date=1183745693]
I understand the Constitution quite well. I also understand that he was impeached but not convicted by the Senate, as I said.
[/quote]

no, you said:

Quote:
The punishment when impeached by both houses is you must leave office, not go to jail. Now, do you think Clinton should have been able to stay in office (avoid the full extent of his punishment) if he was convicted by the Senate?
a president CAN'T be impeached by both houses, only the house of representatives, and is only tried by the Senate. And if he is convicted by the senate, he MUST leave office, there is no other option. He is specifically forbidden from being pardoned for that. Leaving office isn't "the full extent of his punishment", it's the absolute and only result of being convicted by the Senate. He may then be prosecuted criminally, just as Libby was. So your question makes no sense as it is legally impossible, and shows that you actually don't understand it very well at all.[/quote]

I thought you undestood what I said by "impeached by both houses" as I have said "convicted by the Senate" in other posts. I guess I overestimated you.

[quote author=murph182 link=topic=82162.msg1539982#msg1539982 date=1183749349]
law is not, and never has been, black and white.[/quote]

Wait, you just said it was that black and white with regards to the Constitution (see bolded parts above). Which is it now?

07-06-2007 03:21 PM
timmyj
Re: BUSH COMMUTES LIBBY

[quote author=fusionowner link=topic=82162.msg1539979#msg1539979 date=1183749256]
I agree with what you said.

However, it is my Constitutional right to do all kinds of things that are not morally right. Bush's Constitutional right to pardon whomever he wants does not make this morally right. If you care to notice, I am not saying the commutation is ILLEGAL, I am saying it is WRONG.
[/quote]

Cool, I understand your point. I think it was RIGHT for Bush to commute the sentence and it will be RIGHT if he pardons Libby should the appeals court not overturn the conviction (which they probably will in my opinion). I think it was WRONG for Fitzgerald to go after Libby when Armitage was the one that admitted to leaking the name.
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