Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3? - FMVperformance.com : The site for all your Ford Mazda and Volvo needs
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Blitz 18 81.82%
AzMz3 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Ok, the continuation of: http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...amp;highlight= It was rightfully locked. Take a read through it if you have time and let us know what you think.

I think adding a forced induction (supercharger or turbo) to a non-FI car will reduce the life of that engine. I don't know how much difference it will make in the life, there's no way to predict it, but it will have shorter life than a stock car.

Basically I think there are 2 types of failure:

1. Catastrophic: you turn the boost up too high, the stresses on the engine components exceed what the material can handle and the component fails.

2. Fatigue: you're increasing the repetative stresses on the engine components, and that makes them fail quicker.

Now AzMz3 has stated that proper fuel management and tuning will allow for a long run life or a turbo'd Mazda3. It's my opinion that proper tuning will only help prevent catastrophic failure due to a lack of fuel and premature detonation. All the tuning in the world won't help you if you've overstressed you rods. When you add FI to a car, you're increasing the forces and the stresses on the engine components. That is going to have an effect on the life of those components.

I know there are lots of car out there that are running aftermarket turbos without strengthening the internals of the engine. But I don't think those cars will last as long as a non turbo'd car. Example: we take 2 identical Mazda3's, leave one stock (~140 WHP) and add a turbo to one (~200 WHP). Both are subject to the same throttle input/driving conditions/etc. Which one last longer? Which one would you rather buy after 5 years? Maybe both will still last to 100,000 miles, but who knows?

Lastly, the Mazda3 is a bit of an unknown in that no one has installed a turbo yet and we don't have any real data on this yet. So far, it looks like our weak point is the transmission:

http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission
http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission
http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission
http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission
http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission
http://mazda3forums.com/viewtopic.ph...t=transmission

So in conclusion:
-I'm not saying the Mazda3 can't handle boost.
-I'm saying it won't last as long as a stock Mazda3.
-We don't know if the Mazda3 can handle boost long term.
-Tuning only prevents one type of failure.

I just want people to be aware that you're taking a big risk when installing a turbo, especially if you've one of the first to do it. I don't want people to be SOL when they don't have enough money to fix their car, and they still have 3 years of payments left.


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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 04:23 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Well I suppose you are both right becuase I dont think AzMz3 actually said that FI wouldnt hurt the car he just said that if its done right the engine can still last a long time.

There is no question that when you run more power on any vehicle the life expectancy drops one way or another. How significantly depends on a lot of factors.

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "3AndMe"
Any kind of boost you put on an engine will cause it to wear faster then it would normally. The more boost, the more mechanical stress it has to endure, and the sooner the failure. You can help it by fortifying the engine with different metals, often times necessary (especially with aluminum blocks like ours).
Quote:
Originally Posted by "AzMz3"
It sounds like Maniac and 3AndMe have no clue about SC's or turbos.
This was my problem. AzMz3 repeately listened to that arguement budgy and kept claiming those people were ignorant.


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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 04:41 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Oh never really noticed that.... there is no doubt that you will stress things more, and subsequently will be reducing the life of the engine somehow. The only way the engine will last as long running boost is if you buy forged internals, and you properly maintain it as well which costs a lot more money on a monthly basis than what you need to do with a stock engine.

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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 05:10 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

i agree with blitz on this one any serious modification (i.e turbo supercharger or nitrous ) will kill the life of the motor..if the motor dont give out first then the tranny ..and so and so on..but hey your wanna play you gotta pay
post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 08:32 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

I voted for you blitz. You can tune your car as much as you want but forced induction will incur a penalty on engine life. There is absolutely no debate overy this issue (except in the mind of AzMz3 apparently). If it really wasn't an issue, manufacturers wouldn't be dumb enough to spend money upgrading or strenghtning components on their engines when do bolt on a turbo when all they had to do was a proper tune up.

Though I am not sure why you're wasting precious posts arguing with AzMz3. His posts all have a typical pattern to them. There is the 'you don't know what you're talking about'.......'don't post if you don't know what you're talking'.......'I know what I am talking about'..but refuse to cite or show evidence and finally end with a few dozen

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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 10:11 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

The weak link in the Protege/Mazdaspeed Protege/Protege5 was always the piston rods.

They would usually snap under higher amounts of boost and then you get some fancy lightening in your block. (Seen it happen to a couple friends of mine ... not pretty)

If you were to run a low enough amount of boost, and keep up with all other maitanence (of course, it has to have proper tuning) I really believe that you can run a safe, efficient boosted situation without any effect on engine longevity (except to the extremes.) There are some members of the Protege community who have thousands of miles on their kits on stock internals, without any problems or anything failing because they are staying safe.

I think that as long as you would stay under the material fatigue levels for everything, you wouldn't have to worry about building anything up.

Now, that being said - if you plan on to really get into it, there's no denying that you should build up a motor. Hell, it might even be safer if you build it up from the start. But if experience has taught us anything from the Protege owners, it's that you can run a boosted setup on stock internals without problem, as long as you keep the levels down low.

As soon as some of my Protege friends are available, I'll talk to them specifically about what they know about this.

I'm not agreeing with blitz OR AzMz3 entirely, but I think that both bring good points to the table (although some with more cynicysm than others). Elements are both true from both camps. You run FI, you do put more wear/tear on the engine, but that should only mean accelerated maitanence and not really so much with replacing engiens faster unless you are getting into the super high mileage levels.

Of course, this is somewhat what budgy said above ... just with a lot more text.


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 10:35 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Personally, I think the moral here is that if you have confidence and really think you know what you're doing (all while you're amazingly stubborn to the contrary), you should be able to mod your car without much damage as long as you do things carefully.

Of course, "doing things right" when you run high boost or whatever other major hp addition involves reworking internals. The conservative stuff that AzMz3 talks about should be okay on our MZRs as long as you spend a lot of effort in making sure things work right.

I mean, AzMz3 already put on the balance-shaft delete kit, upgraded the exhaust, and is looking to put on stiffer valve springs (presumably, since he wants to rev up higher). Now, I'm sure he's done his homework and made sure that the fuel management will keep up, and is going to progress carefully.

If he keeps his boost around 5psi, there *shouldn't* be a problem, but he's going to have to spend a hella lot of tuning time and careful attention to ensure that things go smoothly.

The MZR was designed so Joe-Schmoe can turn the key and drive to work every day for 4 years. Obviously, that's a pretty stressful operating environment as it is

Anyway, we'll be able to learn more from AzMz3's stubborness than without - so I'm not going to stop him from trying


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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-05-2005, 10:38 PM
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "holeydonut"
The MZR was designed so Joe-Schmoe can turn the key and drive to work every day for 4 years.
:shock:

I sure hope not. That's not very long at all...


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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-06-2005, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
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Who's right about forced induction: Blitz or AzMz3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "holeydonut"
Anyway, we'll be able to learn more from AzMz3's stubborness than without - so I'm not going to stop him from trying
I agree. He's said money wasn't an issue, so I'm all for him testing things out. It sounds like he's doing a good job of it too.

I also agree that a low boost system set up properly *should* be ok. But to not allow for the possibility that a properly tuned FI engine could still suffer mechanical failure? That's just silly.


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