HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA - Page 2 - FMVperformance.com : The site for all your Ford Mazda and Volvo needs
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
Grand Am Series
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CAIRNS AUSTRALIA
Posts: 266
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Ok fellas, here are a few more pointers as I don't think you are answering the questions. (Probably due to my lousy sentence structure!). But I really want to hear from YOU not me:

1. Rather than deal with the social issues that cause crime in the US the politicians are swayed by the gun lobby. Hence lots more guns. And lots more guns = lots more crime. True?

2. The US threatens and wages war to tame nations instead of using dipomacy to come to terms with differences between the US and nations who do not toe the US line. Nations who do not toe the line are evil and worthy of destruction. Or are they? Discuss.

3. The US has so many nuclear arms that it could make the whole earth an ash pile. It has far more than all of the other countries having nuclear capability added together. There is no "Mutual" in Mutually Assured Destruction. Terrorists have no country. You can't target a nuclear weapon on a terrorist. So why have so many? Who are you going to use them on?

4. If a country does not agree with US policy or better still wishes to remain neutral does this automatically make it evil and anti US?

FEBRUARY 23rd 2004 MAZDA3 MAXX SPORT MANUAL SEDAN TITANIUM
ZOOMER is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 03:00 AM
Le Mans: Prototype Class
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,582
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"

1. Rather than deal with the social issues that cause crime in the US the politicians are swayed by the gun lobby. Hence lots more guns. And lots more guns = lots more crime. True?
I think before we start pointing fingers at gun totting americans/canadians there are other issues we need to address as well. DUI offenders kill thousands and thousands of innocent ppl every year. Should alcohol be banned? I am not sure how many Americans would want a second prohibition! One could make the case that more accessible alochol = more drunk driving = more deaths. Or should they start giving out alcohol only to those who don't have a driver's licence?

It is obvious that if no one was allowed to own a gun, there would be far less crime. I know some of you have pointed out that a criminal would still use a knife or any sorta weapon. However, fact of the matter is, nothing gives you the sense of security or confidence that a gun does. I would go as far as saying that I would be far more likely to use a gun if I carried one (in self defence I mean). I know I wouldn't hand over my wallet to a knife weilding mugger if I had a SIG on me :P And seeing as how much terror a gun instills in the other person when it's pointed at his/her head, your chances of success at say robbing a convenience store or bank are increased enough to make you try if you're desperate.

But I say to those who lobby to ban gun ownership. Please also lobby to ban alcohol (luckily I live in Canada so this doens't apply here ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"

2. The US threatens and wages war to tame nations instead of using dipomacy to come to terms with differences between the US and nations who do not toe the US line. Nations who do not toe the line are evil and worthy of destruction. Or are they? Discuss.
England did it during it's colonial rule around the world. France did it. Spain did it. Russia did it. Not to mention the romans and greeks and what not. So now it's the US's turn. If it weren't the US, it would be some other country/dynasty/empire/etc. Point being this tactic is hardly new. If you were to ask the romans or the british at the peak of their empires they too would have felt they were out to do good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
3. The US has so many nuclear arms that it could make the whole earth an ash pile. It has far more than all of the other countries having nuclear capability added together. There is no "Mutual" in Mutually Assured Destruction. Terrorists have no country. You can't target a nuclear weapon on a terrorist. So why have so many? Who are you going to use them on?
The nukes are left over from during the Cold war era. They were required then. I don't care what anyone says but nukes stop wars when both countries have em. There is a reason it was a cold war just as there is a reason India and Pakistan aren't at each other's throats. Times have changed and it seems the wars of today are against individuals or small pockets of insurgents/rebels/terrorists. Over time America is bound to cut back it's nuclear arsenal. It costs way to much to maintain them whereas like you said, having that many doesn't intimidate anyone who isn't already scared of the word 'nuclear'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
4. If a country does not agree with US policy or better still wishes to remain neutral does this automatically make it evil and anti US?
Well.....during the cold war the planet was split up into the First world (democratic countries), Second world (communist countries) and the Third World (neutral countries). Seeing as how all third world countries are so poor the term is used as a synonym for 'developing' countries nowadays you could make the above point and get away with it. But, fact of the matter is most of these third world countries were too insignificant to have a position on any matter. However, I am sure you can understand what would have happened if a country was not to show sympathy for the US after 9/11.

Titanium Grey Mazda3 GT w/ GFX, leather and Sparco pedals
Smokin is offline  
post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 04:25 AM Thread Starter
Grand Am Series
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CAIRNS AUSTRALIA
Posts: 266
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Smokin.

1. I do not point fingers. This is more of an academic discussion. Note the Subject is open ended. I did not mention Canada.

2. Good point on alchohol.
It can kill too but in a totally different way.

3. Does no one want to deal with the proposition that if the US put more money and learning into solving its housing and social problems the crime rate would decline and so would the purported need for guns?

4. Diplomacy has the world trading with China. Does anyone think diplomacy would work to bring the US closer to say Muslim countries?

5. Did nukes stop the wars in Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, the Gulf, Iraq?

6. Do you think there are reasons that other countries might want to be an ally of the US or on the other hand be angry at the US?

FEBRUARY 23rd 2004 MAZDA3 MAXX SPORT MANUAL SEDAN TITANIUM
ZOOMER is offline  
post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 05:42 AM
atl
F1 Driver
 
atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Joint Base Lewis McChord,WA
Posts: 4,686
Send a message via AIM to atl Send a message via Yahoo to atl
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"



5. Did nukes stop the wars in Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, the Gulf, Iraq?
Naw but the A-bomb shut the Japs up quick. Hiroshima/Nagasaki
atl is offline  
post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 09:51 AM
Le Mans: Prototype Class
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,261
Send a message via AIM to HairlessBeachApe Send a message via MSN to HairlessBeachApe Send a message via Yahoo to HairlessBeachApe
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
3. The US has so many nuclear arms that it could make the whole earth an ash pile. It has far more than all of the other countries having nuclear capability added together. There is no "Mutual" in Mutually Assured Destruction. Terrorists have no country. You can't target a nuclear weapon on a terrorist. So why have so many? Who are you going to use them on?
While I'll agree that you can't target a terrorist with a nuke (actually you can; but, talk about collateral damage) there is a some misinformation in your post. In all actuality, the U.S. does not have more capability than all the other countries put together. A couple of quick google searches shows:

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Stockpiles.shtml

http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/pro...tnw/chap3.html

The really scary part is this quote from the second link:
Quote:
Experts fear the loss or theft of tactical nuclear weapons in part because of the large number of Russian TNW. According to the Nuclear Notebook, Russia maintains approximately 3,400 operational non-strategic warheads: 1,200 for air defense, 1,540 for bombers and fighters, and 640 for naval aircraft and cruise missiles. "An additional 8,000-10,000 non-operational strategic and non-strategic warheads may be in reserve or awaiting dismantlement."(10) The exact number of Russian tactical nuclear warheads is unavailable because the unilateral parallel reductions of 1991-92 did not require the exchange of real inventory figures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
HairlessBeachApe is offline  
post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 10:40 AM
F1 Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Port Jervis, NY
Posts: 7,234
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
Ok fellas, here are a few more pointers as I don't think you are answering the questions. (Probably due to my lousy sentence structure!). But I really want to hear from YOU not me:

1. Rather than deal with the social issues that cause crime in the US the politicians are swayed by the gun lobby. Hence lots more guns. And lots more guns = lots more crime. True?

2. The US threatens and wages war to tame nations instead of using dipomacy to come to terms with differences between the US and nations who do not toe the US line. Nations who do not toe the line are evil and worthy of destruction. Or are they? Discuss.

3. The US has so many nuclear arms that it could make the whole earth an ash pile. It has far more than all of the other countries having nuclear capability added together. There is no "Mutual" in Mutually Assured Destruction. Terrorists have no country. You can't target a nuclear weapon on a terrorist. So why have so many? Who are you going to use them on?

4. If a country does not agree with US policy or better still wishes to remain neutral does this automatically make it evil and anti US?
1) I'd have to say false (big surprise there!). Part of the problem with the US "social issues" is that politicians are swayed by any lobby of any kind. This is the heart of the problem. The gun lobby is just a drop in the proverbial bucket.

Taking away guns will not magically reduce crime because criminals will still be able to obtain guns illegally. Until someone invents a device to magically make all guns in the world dissapear with the press of a button, they're not going anywhere. Even if US manufacturers stopped making them, they'd still be produced in other countries, and therefore they'd still be available to anyone that wants them.. they'd just be a little more difficult to obtain. Forget about the fact that criminals use guns, knives, bats, cars, AK-47's to commit crimes. When we figure out how to advance the entire population to the point where crime is either not "necessary"or is unacceptable, then AND ONLY THEN will the "need" or apparent need for guns dissapear entirely.

2) I don't think there's anything to discuss here. Obviously, a nation is not evil simply because it disagrees with another country's foreign policy. Whether US citizens like it or not, the rest of the world judges us by the actions our goverment takes. Many of us do not approve of the recent political actions taken. We will all voice our opinions come election day (I hope).

3) I concur with Smokin's explanation, so I won't elaborate on this topic any further.

4) This is basically the same question as number #2.

Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MetalCord is offline  
post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 10:43 AM
F1 Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Port Jervis, NY
Posts: 7,234
Re: HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "MZ6ZoomZoom"
Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
1. Is the right to bear arms in the US more important than dealing with the social problems giving rise to the fear that causes citizens to bear those arms
Why would having legal guns cause a fear of guns? The fear is of people who use them to do wrong, and in most cases those people don't hav elegal gun sin the first place. Not to mention that we have fewer guns per household than Canada, last I heard.

Quote:
2. The US builds and uses bigger, better and smarter weapons to wage war against nations. Does it develop an equal amount of policy and strategy to bridge the differences between it and nations?
huh?


Quote:
3. The US has thousands of nuclear arms. Why?
M.A.D.

Quote:
4. "If you are not with us you are against us." Is that true?
Bush is an idiot. Although, ther eis some truth ot the fact that unless every country is united against terrorism, there's always somewhere it cau flourish.

Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MetalCord is offline  
post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 10:58 AM
F1 Driver
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Posts: 8,793
Send a message via AIM to holeydonut
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Smokin"
I know I wouldn't hand over my wallet to a knife weilding mugger if I had a SIG on me
Unfortunately, even if you just took out your gun to scare the dude away - it is possible that he can actually turn the tables on YOU and say that you threatened him with a firearm. And - you'd be up the creek.

The law is pretty murky on when you actually get to use your gun in any manner. That includes exposing it, pointing it, saying you have one on you, and shooting it. Basically, you shouldn't ever use your gun - unless you're at home. It's really sad - both the fact that you would ever feel threatened enough to feel a gun is your last defense - but that your government doesn't want you to defend yourself.

I believe that a lot of the gun lobby is trying to change the circumstances surrounding this strict punitive attitude towards people who feel compelled to own and use a gun for self defense.

If a person approaches you with a knife to ask for your wallet - it is assumed that you can just give up your wallet and he will go away. Money lost != gun defense on the street.

If a person is running at you with a baseball bat; it is assumed that you can run in the other direction towards safety.

I've heard of cases where someone was actually getting beaten by a small gang and was eventually brought up on charges because he discharged a weapon in an attempt to "free" himself. The mob didn't have guns - and the court found that using a gun posed more risk to people than the gang beating. It's stupid, but it's true. This type of stuff gets pigeonholed every day and unknown to people both in the US and especially those peace-lovers who hate guns outside the US.

When someone who doesn't deal with violence on a daily basis asks why anyone would feel safer with a gun - it seems that they are just dealing with philisophical ideals and Utilitarianistic ideals. Yes, we would ALL be better off if there were less violence. But legally taking guns from people who want them for defense does very little to affect a problem where a huge quantity of guns are already in distribution; and those who would use the guns for evil already have them.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

How much of my soul is owned by DaimlerChrysler Financial Services: $ Bunches $
holeydonut is offline  
post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 11:12 AM
F1 Driver
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Port Jervis, NY
Posts: 7,234
HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Damn straight!!

Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MetalCord is offline  
post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-26-2004, 01:05 PM
Le Mans: GT Class
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 947
Re: HOW THE WORLD VIEWS THE USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
1. Is the right to bear arms in the US more important than dealing with the social problems giving rise to the fear that causes citizens to bear those arms
Why do you seem to think the right to bear arms and dealing with social problems is mutually exclusive? Why not both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
2. The US builds and uses bigger, better and smarter weapons to wage war against nations. Does it develop an equal amount of policy and strategy to bridge the differences between it and nations?
I am sure the US does. We are, after all, the largest giver of foreign aid in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
3. The US has thousands of nuclear arms. Why?
It's for insurance. Just the fact that we own them is a deterent to many would-be adversaries of the US. But someone who doesn't understand the deterent effect of owning guns probably wouldn't appreciate this point. Afterall, the only thing that prevented the out-break of WWIII during the cold war was the assured mutual destriction between USSR and the US.
Also, some times delivering a healthy kick in the ass is the only way to get things done. See WWII.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "ZOOMER"
4. "If you are not with us you are against us." Is that true?
That's over the top. I don't agree with that position. Counties have the right to remain neutral, sit on their ass, and wait for the US to take care of everything.

Lee


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- ABS/SAB/SAC, Moonroof, Changer, Xenon, TPMS - 5 Speed
Adding color to the grayscale seaof cars, one street at a time!!!
LeeLee is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  FMVperformance.com : The site for all your Ford Mazda and Volvo needs > Misc > Lounge

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the FMVperformance.com : The site for all your Ford Mazda and Volvo needs forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome